Decency of Traceurs

[Kirill]

Before we begin, we would like to make a few notes. Firstly, in the following post, when we say “parkour”, we are in fact referring to the art of displacement, freerunning, and parkour. They are technically three different disciplines, but they have the same basic philosophy, so we will refer to them as the same thing. Secondly, keep in mind while reading this that everything we say is only our opinion, and is based on our personal experiences training parkour. We do not intend to promote or harm any website, person, or group. Therefore, we will not refer to any website, person or group by name. Our sole reason for writing this is to address several types of behavior that we believe are leading parkour in the wrong direction. Thirdly, we know that we could easily put off this topic and leave it for others to discuss, but as traceurs who have a fairly accurate understanding about what parkour is and what it is about, we feel that it is our responsibility to share our knowledge with those who may not have the same understanding. Fourthly, this post addresses several philosophical issues in parkour. If you are not interested in the philosophy of parkour, do not waste your time reading it. However, if you care about parkour and its philosophy, we encourage you to read the entire post.

Over the course of our training, we have been taught that parkour is a discipline that one practices because he wants to improve himself in some way. We have real faith in this idea, and we have followed it for the duration of our training. We also believe that most traceurs are decent people who follow that key idea. However, what we have been seeing in the recent past has really made us think twice about the decency of traceurs.

At a few jams we recently attended, we saw demonstrations of recklessness, selfishness, and carelessness. We saw traceurs of only three months leaping off of dangerously high buildings. We saw four different people land on theirs backs while performing different kinds of flips while others were watching and videotaping. We saw beginners being put under pressure to try movements that even many advanced traceurs would hesitate to try. We believe that what we saw at these jams not only violated the fundamental ideas of parkour, but we think it was dangerous, especially to beginners, and could likely give the public a negative view of parkour if they continue.

At this point, we must establish a couple of things about parkour. Firstly, the founders of parkour are entitled to establish the guiding ideas and basic principles of parkour, as the founder of anything else would be entitled to make the ideas and principles of what they founded. Secondly, parkour is meant to be practiced in a relatively safe manner, and at a slow pace. Stephane Vigroux said that many traceurs’ training is “too fast, too easy, too much show… too much.” Chris “Blane” Rowat, one of the most thoughtful traceurs in the world, does a good job of explaining the way parkour should be practiced by saying: “do not feel pressured in to pushing yourself too hard or doing things just because they are. Try to warn [beginners] of the dangers of trying things beyond their bodies’ conditioned state - even if they can do something, doesn’t mean they should.” Yamakasi, the first parkour group, also demonstrates how parkour should be trained by not allowing their trainees to jump for their first year of practice. Lastly, parkour is meant to be practiced in order to improve oneself and be helpful to others, not in order to impress anyone or to compete with anyone. These facts have all been confirmed by the founders of parkour many times.

Using the facts we just established, we can easily see that a lot of what happened in the recent past, and is still happening now, contradicted, and continues to contradict, the fundamental ideas of parkour. The way people are being pushed to try movements that they are not comfortable with conflicts with the idea that parkour should be practiced safely. That is carelessness! The beginners being allowed to jump off of high buildings is also not safe, and shows that beginners are not being encouraged to progress slowly and carefully. Blane also showed his concern about this issue in his blog: “I did this because I thought this is what Parkour was, jumping off high things and living to tell the tale the next day. Oh how far we’ve all come since then… or have we?” Finally, it is simply unacceptable that traceurs are being reckless and possibly showing off in front of other people, and in front of cameras. So, we have established that much of what is happening at recent jams against the guiding ideas and basic principles of parkour using proven facts about parkour. We all need to think about why we practice parkour, and how we can change our behavior at jams to reflect our dedication and humility.

Another thing that concerned us about this behavior was that it set a bad example for beginners and less experienced traceurs. This is dangerous. Imagine being a beginner and watching more experienced traceurs showing off their flips, jumping off of buildings, and showing off right in front of you. If you didn’t know much about parkour, you would be jealous and would want to try to do the same things! That would be unsafe! At a recent jam, we even received complaints from several beginners who felt that they weren’t being included in the jam because everyone was showing off and not paying attention to others! Every traceur needs to be disciplined and humble, no matter how skilled he is. If we want beginners to learn how to practice parkour the right way, we need to set a positive example for them! If we do not set a good example for future generations of traceurs, how will they know what parkour is, what it is about, and how to train it properly?! It is nothing short of selfish to abuse parkour and give beginners the wrong ideas about it. Imagine what would happen if beginners got the wrong idea about parkour, and kept handing those wrong ideas down to more and more generations of traceurs! Parkour would change for the worse! Here is a quote from Erwan Le Corre, an expert on the “Natural Method”, about this issue: “If parkour becomes a sport, it will be hard to seriously teach and spread parkour as a non-competitive activity. And a new sport will be spread that may be called parkour, but that won't hold its philosophical essence anymore.” Let’s not start the ruining of parkour!

Lastly, we wish to address the issue of the public opinion of parkour. In addition to recklessness having catastrophic consequences to one’s body, it also creates a negative image of parkour in the eyes of the public. If we continue to be reckless, we will surely be restricted in ways equal to how bad health can restrict us! With recklessness comes liability. If we want parkour to be recognized as a discipline, we must treat it as a discipline, not a game! We must show respect especially to our environment, and the people around us. We must portray ourselves as serious individuals, people who are dedicated, people who can be trusted. Our future really depends on how we behave right now! If we want to be able to train in the future, we need to be careful not to ruin the public opinion of parkour! It should be obvious that recklessness hurts the public opinion of parkour! For these reasons, we strongly suggest that all traceurs avoid recklessness and train with “will, perseverance, and humility”, as David Belle, the founder of parkour, said we should. It would only take one wrong move to ruin parkour’s reputation, so let’s be careful and aware of how we appear in the eyes of the public.

In conclusion, recklessness is one of the biggest problems in parkour today. It is against the fundamental idea of parkour, it is unsafe, and it gives the public a negative opinion of our discipline. David Belle even addressed it in his official blog, saying that parkour is a “victim of its own success.” So, instead of being reckless, let’s train hard and stay humble! As a final thought, we would like to quote Blane one last time: “If you care for the future of parkour then it is your duty to help [beginners] to progress sensibly and remind them that they should slow down when you think they are going too fast. If we do not do this, parkour will slowly die as its practitioners become weaker and weaker duplicates of past traceurs due to injury, overtraining and joint destruction. Are you going to help to dilute parkour and the new traceurs, or are you going help to concentrate it and strengthen them?”

Thank you for reading, we sincerely hope that you will consider what we said.

Good luck in your training!



~Written by Alex and I

[2nd Chance]

Hm. I agree and disagree. I do think that you're right in that beginners are going too fast. That I won't argue. But I think that the more experienced traceurs should be able to flip about all they want. How else will THEY progress?

It isn't only up to the experts to help the beginners. If they want advice, they are just as capable of asking for it as the experienced are at giving it. Granted, they may be intimidated. But that's why this community is so great! Everyone is helpful and polite, and always willing to help.

Both sides should take responsibility, not just the experienced.

[hillexallen]

Thank you to all of you who took the time to read this! Sorry for making it so long. It was not just Kirill and I who came up with this. There were many other people who thought that it was needed.

@2nd Chance: I understand what you are saying. I agree that beginners should ask for help if they need it, and I think they do ask for help when they need it. But, whether they ask for help or not, they should not be subject to watching other traceurs being reckless. Recklessness does not help anyone to progress. If advanced traceurs want to do advanced movements, that's fine, but they must also realize that people who don't know any better will want to imitate them.

There are no sides. It is not acceptable for anybody to be reckless.

[Zack Weldon]

I consider the monthly jam my monthly pilgrimage to the bay area to progress myself further and pass the knowledge I learn down to the local traceurs here who aren't as privileged as I to make it there as often.

I agree that this weekend I saw a few wreckless things:
absolute beginners doing decently high roof drops and landing/ rolling horrible. (The good news is that the ground they were landing on was squooshy and not cement!! :]! ) still reckless though

I had a few opportunities to tell people to re-think it or be careful and I took most all of those opportunities.

I believe that most of the advanced traceurs weren't "showing off" there fancy techniques and tricks but they were drilling them or helping other traceurs of similar calibur tweak or learn theres. I don't think that just because there are beginners around that we should go find a secret hiding spot and train them there but like you said just make sure that new people know where they are at. I really liked the post though good work fellas!

[Zack Weldon]

I also believe that different people start with different abilities and it is upto both the individual and anyone who knows and teaches them to help gauge that based on what they have done pre-parkour etc.

[T.K.]

I agree with Zack on this subject but i do have one thing to say is that if you see begginers preparing to attempt something they shouldnt be doing ... the more experianced people need to tell them not to do it, and explain why they are not ready for it. Yea we told them it was dangerous but we didnt bother to just stop them from doing it. Yea you cant really control them due to the fact that this is a community but, the begginers have a certain respect for the experianced, to the point were if you told them not to do it cause they arent ready ... then they tend to listen.

Im not saying its any ones person responsibility ... it is everyone responsibility as a community to stop begginers or even experienced traceurs from doing things they arent ready for. I am just at fault as everyone else. I think from now on we need to work together more as a community to promote safe training and when experianced traceurs are doing higher level movments let the begginers know that one day they will be at that level but you have to slowly progress to that level throught time.

[lethalbeef]

Thanks for putting it up there. I think we all needed a reminder of what's going on, and a chance to address these issues.

I think that the monthly jams have a wildly different dynamic than the rest of the jams that go on in our community. That is, the attitude of the traceurs and training sessions and jams or whatnot are shaped by the community they're training in, the people around them. We're a diverse community, that's for sure - some of us have a lot of experience, some are just beginning; some lean toward tricking and flipping, while others practice pure efficiency; some have backgrounds in other disciplines, and some hold parkour as their only discipline. This makes a difference, and affects what goes on in a jam. I've been gone for the last month so I'm not sure which specific sessions you guys are referring to, but while, within one community, we may be practicing very safely and conditioning diligently toward some ideal of parkour, when the entire SFPK community comes together in something like the monthly jam, things change a little. Those of us who are interested in freerunning have a chance to train with others who can advise in that area, those of us who want to practice parkour proper get to do it with their ilk, and so on. While what you guys saw may have been largely things that seemed reckless, remember that there were people who were training the way you think parkour should be done.

Nevertheless, that doesn't excuse us. You were right that beginners probably weren't getting the attention they should have been given, and there was too much tricking for the sake of tricking being called parkour. In the first case, though, I'm hoping that everyone who needed help did ask for it. In the second case, I saw two instances of what I think you're saying was reckless: jumping off the shed, and all the tricking that was going on. As far as jumping off high things goes? If that's reckless and an example of setting bad examples, I'm pretty sure that jam wasn't the first time people had seen it happen. If that's a bad thing, then David Belle and all the other traceurs should take their videos of roof precisions and other dangerous things offline - I'm sure those influenced people first. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think it was Zack and Beretta and me on top of the shed roof first, and all three of us dismounted by going into a cat and dropping carefully. The people who came after us weren't following our examples, they were following something else they saw. Of course, that doesn't mean we couldn't have gone back up there and told them to dismount properly, etc. And about the tricking, the people who were doing it were confident that they could do it, I think. Is that recklessness, when you train what you want to train? I mean, how far do you extend it, you know? Is it reckless for me to do a double-kong when there's a beginner around, because they're going to try it imitate me? How about a dive kong? How about a kong, or a monkey, or a turn vault? Any of those carry their own dangers, some more than others, but to me, I don't think it's reckless at all, even though to some mother of a 3 year old, it'd be the most irresponsible thing one could do in front of her kid. How far do you take it?

I think perhaps the key to all of this is some sort of disclaimer. An express and constant reminder that techniques and movements that some of us execute were not learned in a day. They require regular and disciplined conditioning, practice, and progression. They can be dangerous and there are definitely risks involved, when one is trying to progress they should keep all of that in mind and decide what their limits are and how fast they want to progress. But I'm not going to tell someone they can't do something, you know? I'm not going to tell someone not to practice what they want to - where's the humility in that? I'll try my best to teach them how to do it in a safe manner and teach them the ways they can work up to achieving it.

And while we're on the topic of humility, I think we all need to go back and take a look at what we were like when we first started training. The methods, the disciplines, the influences, and the attitude. Myself particularly, I've been doing parkour for a long time and I need to keep reminding myself at this point of what I had to go through to learn what I know now. It was as much time and practice as it was courage and enthusiasm. But when you look at quotes like Blane's: "If we do not do this, parkour will slowly die as its practitioners become weaker and weaker duplicates of past traceurs..." I have to think to myself, "really?" Is this actually going to happen? I think all we can do is go up, because, you know what? I was extremely reckless when I started. I learned everything through videos and tutorials, trained without any conditioning, had no teachers to tell me what to do. Of course, I train differently now than I used to, but I learned all of it through my experience practicing and reading the resources that were available online. Why should we expect it to be different for anyone else? Beginners now have it way better than I did; there are active communities, experienced comrades, classes, some recognition of the discipline in the public eye. None of that existed before. We can impart a lot to the people who are coming in, and they'll advance a lot faster than we did. So it seems strange to say that they NEED us to tell them what to do... that doesn't seem very humble to me. And all these people who have prophecies about the future of parkour declining... well, I'm humble enough not to claim I know what's going to happen if I do this or don't do that, and I think we're lucky enough to be populated by people who are seriously interested in parkour as a discipline, a lifestyle, a philosophy, and an exercise. I think we're pretty safe.

Anyway, not exactly sure where I'm going with this. I do agree with you guys to some extent, but I think the conduct of the jam was okay, it was our attitude about it that was off. We should have made sure people recognized the what was going on, that the monthly jam was as much a social event as it was training, that parkour has separate manners of practice, that not everything is going to be immediately achievable, but if anyone wanted help, it was there. I hope you guys (and whoever else you represent in writing that message) know that there are tons of sessions going on all the time, and most of them are more low-key and accessible. There are conditioning sessions and beginner classes and regular training sessions, etc.

[MadScience]

*sigh* here goes...

I agree: beginner's need to be brought along at a safe pace they are comfortable with.
I disagree: that pace is not always slow, I've personally seen several people take to parkour like fish to water. Trying to slow down their progress does them, yourself and Parkour a disservice.

I agree: We should respect those who came before us and broke trail so that our progress would be easier, our way clearer. Thank you.
I disagree: The idea that David Belle or anyone else can issue edicts and dictate what is or is not Parkour is absurd. The art/movement has clearly exploded beyond their control. We as a community will decide where parkour goes. A broad inclusive definition serves the whole community. A narrow restrictive definition only alienates and offends large numbers of traceurs.

I agree: Effort should be taken at all times, by all people to see that a responsible example is set. Anyone who has achieved significant progress owes the people that came before, and can repay that debt by helping those less skilled.
I disagree: Are you seriously suggesting that the most skilled traceurs should practice in private because someone might see them and aspire to do what they do? Well obviously we all aspire to be/do better, thats the whole idea. And the people practicing flips are in fact still learning and training themselves. They are still students, they are simply further along in their training.

I agree: Every one of us should take personal responsibility to see the art of Parkour practiced safely. Yes, special care needs to be taken to ensure that people newly introduced to the sport understand the idea of progression, that large jumps only happen after hundred of small jumps.
I disagree: We will never completely eliminate the foolish people who see what we do and poorly and dangerously imitate it. They are not traceurs because they haven't trained, haven't learned what the art is about, are not involved in the community. They are idiots jumping of of shit. This is nothing new, have you seen Jackass. All we can do is our best to separate ourselves from them, emphasize the importance of training and conditioning. Which we do, damn well.

Meh, whatever. I doubt I've helped the situation at all. I guess what I'm saying is we can promote safety and further the art of parkour without trying to dictate to how others behave.

[hillexallen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by T.K.

Im not saying its any ones person responsibility ... it is everyone responsibility as a community to stop begginers or even experienced traceurs from doing things they arent ready for. I am just at fault as everyone else. I think from now on we need to work together more as a community to promote safe training and when experianced traceurs are doing higher level movments let the begginers know that one day they will be at that level but you have to slowly progress to that level throught time.

WORD!!! There is nothing wrong with showing people what you have learned by doing flips and jumping off roofs etc. It only becomes a problem when a beginner gets the idea that "training parkour" is the same thing as "flipping around and jumping off of roofs." So, we need to make sure beginners know the difference. I was told off by a brand new beginner the other day when I told him not to try some of the things that the advanced traceurs were doing until he had trained for a longer time. I think it was because he wanted to imitate them and didn't want me getting in his way. We can't have that happening, so we need to make sure beginners know how to train before they get bad ideas...

About showing off: I think there are two kinds of it:

1. Performing a movement that you are not necessarily capable of doing safely in order to impress someone. It is "reckless" and it is usually not ok.

2. Performing a movement that you are capable of doing safely in order to show others what you have been working on or to have fun. Usually ok.

I have seen both of them recently. The first kind is harmful to everyone, because it is dangerous to the person who is showing off, and it gives beginners the idea that the "first kind" of showing off is part of parkour.

So let's:

1. Not do the "first kind" of showing off.
2. Help beginners understand how to train properly.
3. Help others by not making them feel pressured into trying things they are not capable of.

[hillexallen]

I don't care if you do the hardest, most advanced, most dangerous thing anyone has ever seen as long as:

1. You are capable of it.
2. You prevent people who aren't capable from doing it.
3. You are humble about it.

[hillexallen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lethalbeef

An express and constant reminder that techniques and movements that some of us execute were not learned in a day. They require regular and disciplined conditioning, practice, and progression. They can be dangerous and there are definitely risks involved, when one is trying to progress they should keep all of that in mind and decide what their limits are and how fast they want to progress. But I'm not going to tell someone they can't do something, you know? I'm not going to tell someone not to practice what they want to - where's the humility in that? I'll try my best to teach them how to do it in a safe manner and teach them the ways they can work up to achieving it.

Yes!

[hillexallen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadScience

Are you seriously suggesting that the most skilled traceurs should practice in private because someone might see them and aspire to do what they do? Well obviously we all aspire to be/do better, thats the whole idea. And the people practicing flips are in fact still learning and training themselves. They are still students, they are simply further along in their training.

We are definitely not saying that. We are saying that if they must practice advanced movements in front of beginners, they must also help the beginners to understand that it take years of hard training to get to that level. They must help the beginners to reach that level safely. Otherwise, beginners get the idea that they can just go and imitate the veterans without hard training and conditioning.

[hillexallen]

By the way, I'm not JUST talking about the monthly jam! We posted the exact same thing on BAPK, because the same problems are occurring there.

[BENNY]

holy rants...lol

good points brought up here, but i think you guys are over-thinking and over complicating things.

the way i see it is, yeah sure, at the monthlies everybodys doing some whack move thats pretty risky and tempting for beginners, but if your saying thats a bad thing, then your making a moot point. yeah the flips and fancy moves done by more experienced guys may make beginners jelous and want to try them, but thats natural, thats the way it works. i mean if no body got excited watching others perform, why would they wanna do the same thing? the flips and fancy moves doesnt encourage people to be reckless, it excites viewers, and the excitement/jelousy is what prompts us to try and improve our skills. its not like its other people's responsibility for your own behavior, whether or not someone does reckless/dangerous moves is dependant on that individual. of course seeing cool moves makes beginners want to try them, but they should know by their own judgement whether or not they should attempt the risk. if your doing parkour its safe to say you gots to have a certain degree of judgement, if you dont have the judgement to keep yourself safe, that no ones responsibility but your own. its parkour, people are allowed and should by all means do whatever moves they want, anf if you want to do a move thats you are not ready for, thats still your call. most people can figure out the risks, but if not all we can do is remind them theres always risks.

anyways, the monthlies are when all of us gets together, and its fun to show off new moves and techniques, like a showcase of everyones improvements. it wouldnt be as funn if every monthly everybody were doing the same old drills as last month right?

[Corndogg]

thanks to both kirill and alex for posting this. its a hard thing sometimes to really lay your thoughts and feelings out there for everyone, but its good that you did!

so first may i ask, when you saw examples of carelessness and people trying things that were probably past their limits, did you say anything to them or to the others? if you did, what was the response? and if not, why didn't you? i would definitely suggest to everyone that if you see someone going to attempt or attempting something that you feel is dangerous or well beyond their limits, then you should say something RIGHT THEN! on the forum to the general public is all well and good, but if its specific people at specific times, then thats really the best time to say something. also feel free to take me or a Rep aside discreetly and say something, and we will say something anonymously on your behalf. no problem.

next, this is a very good post with the right intentions and a very good message for everyone. but you both do make quite a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. i do think while this is right on, it is a bit overblown since at the high point there were over 50 people, but at the "tricking tree" there really was only ~15 people or less, and a lot of those were experienced, conditioned traceurs how train a lot and know the risks, and that the people being "reckless" was probably limited to a few individuals. like when i see shane fall on his back, im not as worried because he has conditioned a lot and knows hes falling and gets right back up and does it again. for him i see that as practice, and not recklessness or dangerous behavior. well of course its inherently dangerous, but in his case its controlled.

personally, i am a big believer in free will and control of ones own actions. if i see people do flips, i dont want to try them myself because i know the risks and its not worth it to me. and when i see someone do a 3-step wallflip, i definitely dont think that i can just bust that out! but while im constantly yelling for people to be careful and watch out for this and that (like at the elementary school and many other times), i realize that ultimately the only person im responsible for is myself, and that i cant force anyone to do anything. you can lead a horse to water, but cant force him to drink right? so i think we're doing a pretty good job of promoting safety and conditioning and all that, and should continue to try and improve, but ultimately each person is responsible for their own actions. peer pressure (if there is any) be damned!


cliff notes:
- take responsibility for your own actions.
- dont peer pressure others, and encourage safety at all times.
- train hard.
- dont be reckless, and know your limits.

[hillexallen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENNY

holy rants...lol

good points brought up here, but i think you guys are over-thinking and over complicating things.

the way i see it is, yeah sure, at the monthlies everybodys doing some whack move thats pretty risky and tempting for beginners, but if your saying thats a bad thing, then your making a moot point. yeah the flips and fancy moves done by more experienced guys may make beginners jelous and want to try them, but thats natural, thats the way it works. i mean if no body got excited watching others perform, why would they wanna do the same thing? the flips and fancy moves doesnt encourage people to be reckless, it excites viewers, and the excitement/jelousy is what prompts us to try and improve our skills. its not like its other people's responsibility for your own behavior, whether or not someone does reckless/dangerous moves is dependant on that individual. of course seeing cool moves makes beginners want to try them, but they should know by their own judgement whether or not they should attempt the risk. if your doing parkour its safe to say you gots to have a certain degree of judgement, if you dont have the judgement to keep yourself safe, that no ones responsibility but your own. its parkour, people are allowed and should by all means do whatever moves they want, anf if you want to do a move thats you are not ready for, thats still your call. most people can figure out the risks, but if not all we can do is remind them theres always risks.

anyways, the monthlies are when all of us gets together, and its fun to show off new moves and techniques, like a showcase of everyones improvements. it wouldnt be as funn if every monthly everybody were doing the same old drills as last month right?

Ok first of all, anything that is "risky and tempting for beginners" is not safe. I don't know why you think it's ok to put beginners at risk. Secondly, you need to understand that it IS our responsibility to make sure that nobody gets hurt because of our making them jealous. If people get hurt because we make them jealous, is will cause parkour to get a bad reputation. I strongly disagree with you that if someone does parkour, it is safe to say that they have good judgement. If that were the case, we wouldn't see brand new beginners jumping off of roofs. Yes, the monthly is a great place to showcase what you have been working on and that's great, but we must keep in mind that "showcasing" could give beginners bad ideas, so we need to explain to them that you need to train hard and learn movements before you can "showcase" them.

I think you are REALLY underestimating how far some people will go to imitate something cool that they saw another guy do. You may have good judgement, but you cannot expect everyone else to have good judgement. Since you have good judgement, it is your responsibility to help those who don't have good judgement. Just like a rich person has the responsibility help a poor person.

Lastly, I seriously hope that you don't think that jealously is what makes me want to improve. Of course jealousy can be a driving factor, that's just Human nature, but I think most of us want more than just to be better than everybody.

[hillexallen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corndogg

thanks to both kirill and alex for posting this. its a hard thing sometimes to really lay your thoughts and feelings out there for everyone, but its good that you did!

so first may i ask, when you saw examples of carelessness and people trying things that were probably past their limits, did you say anything to them or to the others? if you did, what was the response? and if not, why didn't you? i would definitely suggest to everyone that if you see someone going to attempt or attempting something that you feel is dangerous or well beyond their limits, then you should say something RIGHT THEN! on the forum to the general public is all well and good, but if its specific people at specific times, then thats really the best time to say something. also feel free to take me or a Rep aside discreetly and say something, and we will say something anonymously on your behalf. no problem.

next, this is a very good post with the right intentions and a very good message for everyone. but you both do make quite a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. i do think while this is right on, it is a bit overblown since at the high point there were over 50 people, but at the "tricking tree" there really was only ~15 people or less, and a lot of those were experienced, conditioned traceurs how train a lot and know the risks, and that the people being "reckless" was probably limited to a few individuals. like when i see shane fall on his back, im not as worried because he has conditioned a lot and knows hes falling and gets right back up and does it again. for him i see that as practice, and not recklessness or dangerous behavior. well of course its inherently dangerous, but in his case its controlled.

personally, i am a big believer in free will and control of ones own actions. if i see people do flips, i dont want to try them myself because i know the risks and its not worth it to me. and when i see someone do a 3-step wallflip, i definitely dont think that i can just bust that out! but while im constantly yelling for people to be careful and watch out for this and that (like at the elementary school and many other times), i realize that ultimately the only person im responsible for is myself, and that i cant force anyone to do anything. you can lead a horse to water, but cant force him to drink right? so i think we're doing a pretty good job of promoting safety and conditioning and all that, and should continue to try and improve, but ultimately each person is responsible for their own actions. peer pressure (if there is any) be damned!


cliff notes:
- take responsibility for your own actions.
- dont peer pressure others, and encourage safety at all times.
- train hard.
- dont be reckless, and know your limits.

That is exactly what I am encouraging!

[Corndogg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hillexallen

Just like a rich person has the responsibility help a poor person.

dunno about that, kind of a bad analogy.

[Kirill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corndogg

people trying things that were probably past their limits, did you say anything to them or to the others? if you did, what was the response? and if not, why didn't you? i would definitely suggest to everyone that if you see someone going to attempt or attempting something that you feel is dangerous or well beyond their limits, then you should say something RIGHT THEN!

We did. They said that we were "over-thinking things, and making them more complicated"

They also mentioned that they trained for three months, and that their bodies were able to deal with the impact.

When he jumped.....

we tried warning again, but thought better to wright this up, so that they may read it, and possibly benefit from it.

[Kirill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corndogg

dunno about that, kind of a bad analogy.

I think he meant more like it is the responsibility of a wise person to freely offer his knowledge to his/her students.

Maybe i made it worse..haha